It does stand out to me that the list of artists whose rabid fanbases cheer for UMG are all solo artists, not bands. I guess I've heard people describe solo artists as "selling out" before, but the demise of "selling out" as a concept seems tied to the demise of rock music as a relevant force in popular culture.
You might be on to something! I could be wrong but I think band fans often are busy with intraband dynamics as well so there's less of a need to look outward.
Then again, the k-pop scene is also very metrics focused.
"Or simply search for “Justin outsold” or “Ariana outsold” or “Rihanna outsold” or whoever else you can think of, and you’ll be presented with thousands of tweets arguing about sales figures, as if they mean something to the fans, as if these are particularly vocal shareholders bragging about future returns."
This is something I noticed in gaming discourse as well before retreating from those kinds of spaces, the shareholder comparison is something I also arrived at. We are gamers, not shareholders, why do you care how much this game sold. I don't care about the Wii U's sales numbers, it was a great console with unique features and games that I greatly enjoyed, that's what matters to me.
Pokémon fans in particular have become such corporate cheerleaders that I think paid shills would be less extreme. Cheering for the games that represent new lows in series quality selling well and for a patent trolling lawsuit against an indie game. There's starting to be a pattern of them creating and spreading misinformation to protect their beloved brand, always easily broken by looking at what the developers themselves actually said or did.
“I wonder if a lot of this outsold-phenomenon is rooted in a general pessimism about our own prospects. Industries are collapsing around us, AI is coming for our jobs, but we can still pick the winning team, argue over single sales versus album sales, streaming numbers versus touring revenues.” 💯!!! I think it’s a form of projection, the parasocial veering into the financial because people feel powerless about their own lives.
This is excellent. I was tickled when I saw you using Fall Out Boy as an example for the difficult relationship fans and bands can have with Major labels. This quote especially "i have been scared of being in a big band for a long time." is fascinating because it's also accepted that Wentz engineered the band signing to a major prior to their first album. The agreement also allowed them to release their first album Take This To Your Grave on a smaller label, so they could build up their fanbase organically and not be seen as a major label imposition. Which is super smart, he wanted to be a rockstar, but clearly the guy has a complex relationship with fame(/infamy)
I'm actually working on a piece about Fall Out Boy's From Under the Cork Tree right now- so very glad to see there's already high quality writing about them on Substack.
Wentz is full of contradictions. I think that’s what keeps me fascinated with the more fuzzy era of fandom interaction and management, the FOE era, and the consistent use of blogs to distribute “secret knowledge” to fans. It’s almost normalized these days, but they were early adopters of this type of approach.
I’m kind of surprised they weren’t covered in the Sellout book because there’s SO MUCH there (the MCR section is less than perfect, as well.)
He really is, I was digging back into his old blog archives recently and I really think they're some of his most interesting work. Like you say there's this deep hidden layer to Fall Out Boy for fans who interacted with the totality of them- online and personally as well as their music. Overcast Kids cult.
Also agree I enjoyed Sellout a lot but there's so much more to cover- I think that's part of why I started writing about similar topics myself!
OCK were such a big deal! If you ever want to chat in more detail about this era feel free to reach out, I don't know anyone else who seems to be as "into" this era including the online/parasocial feeding of things, and I think it's been so impactful for modern fandom/industry interactions but rarely acknowledged, stoked to see what you've got to say about it all!
It does stand out to me that the list of artists whose rabid fanbases cheer for UMG are all solo artists, not bands. I guess I've heard people describe solo artists as "selling out" before, but the demise of "selling out" as a concept seems tied to the demise of rock music as a relevant force in popular culture.
You might be on to something! I could be wrong but I think band fans often are busy with intraband dynamics as well so there's less of a need to look outward.
Then again, the k-pop scene is also very metrics focused.
"Or simply search for “Justin outsold” or “Ariana outsold” or “Rihanna outsold” or whoever else you can think of, and you’ll be presented with thousands of tweets arguing about sales figures, as if they mean something to the fans, as if these are particularly vocal shareholders bragging about future returns."
This is something I noticed in gaming discourse as well before retreating from those kinds of spaces, the shareholder comparison is something I also arrived at. We are gamers, not shareholders, why do you care how much this game sold. I don't care about the Wii U's sales numbers, it was a great console with unique features and games that I greatly enjoyed, that's what matters to me.
Pokémon fans in particular have become such corporate cheerleaders that I think paid shills would be less extreme. Cheering for the games that represent new lows in series quality selling well and for a patent trolling lawsuit against an indie game. There's starting to be a pattern of them creating and spreading misinformation to protect their beloved brand, always easily broken by looking at what the developers themselves actually said or did.
“I wonder if a lot of this outsold-phenomenon is rooted in a general pessimism about our own prospects. Industries are collapsing around us, AI is coming for our jobs, but we can still pick the winning team, argue over single sales versus album sales, streaming numbers versus touring revenues.” 💯!!! I think it’s a form of projection, the parasocial veering into the financial because people feel powerless about their own lives.
There is something to be said about how humans can derive pleasure from second-hand/by proxy experiences...
This is excellent. I was tickled when I saw you using Fall Out Boy as an example for the difficult relationship fans and bands can have with Major labels. This quote especially "i have been scared of being in a big band for a long time." is fascinating because it's also accepted that Wentz engineered the band signing to a major prior to their first album. The agreement also allowed them to release their first album Take This To Your Grave on a smaller label, so they could build up their fanbase organically and not be seen as a major label imposition. Which is super smart, he wanted to be a rockstar, but clearly the guy has a complex relationship with fame(/infamy)
I'm actually working on a piece about Fall Out Boy's From Under the Cork Tree right now- so very glad to see there's already high quality writing about them on Substack.
Thank you!
Wentz is full of contradictions. I think that’s what keeps me fascinated with the more fuzzy era of fandom interaction and management, the FOE era, and the consistent use of blogs to distribute “secret knowledge” to fans. It’s almost normalized these days, but they were early adopters of this type of approach.
I’m kind of surprised they weren’t covered in the Sellout book because there’s SO MUCH there (the MCR section is less than perfect, as well.)
He really is, I was digging back into his old blog archives recently and I really think they're some of his most interesting work. Like you say there's this deep hidden layer to Fall Out Boy for fans who interacted with the totality of them- online and personally as well as their music. Overcast Kids cult.
Also agree I enjoyed Sellout a lot but there's so much more to cover- I think that's part of why I started writing about similar topics myself!
OCK were such a big deal! If you ever want to chat in more detail about this era feel free to reach out, I don't know anyone else who seems to be as "into" this era including the online/parasocial feeding of things, and I think it's been so impactful for modern fandom/industry interactions but rarely acknowledged, stoked to see what you've got to say about it all!
Absolutely will do Monia :)